Geoffrey de Saye I

• Preferred Name: Geoffrey de Saye I^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]}
  
• Alternate Name: Geoffrey the Elder
  
• Gender: M
  
• Fact: with note: Description: https://www.geni.com/people/Geoffrey-II-de-Saye-1st-Lord-of-West-Greenwich-Magna-Carta-Surety/6000000001354634669?through=6000000014852968898
  
• Birth: 1130 in Essex, England at LATI: N1.8523 LONG: E0.6147
  
• Death: 19 MAY 1214 in West Greenwich, Kent, England at LATI: N1.4753 LONG: E0.012
  
• Burial: in Hospital of St. Mary, Dover, Kent, England at LATI: N1.1274 LONG: E0.312
  
• Title (Nobility): with note: Description: 1st Lord of West Greenwich
  
• Seal to Parents: 2 JAN 1951 in SLAKE at LATI: N0.6256 LONG: E111.8756
  
• FSID: G947-3B4
  
• Life Sketch: with note: Description: «b»Biography«/b» "He was involved in financial transactions and law suits against his cousins and nephew by marriage Geoffrey Fitz Piers to gain the lands of the Mandeville Earls of Essex; married 1st Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and widow of Ralph de Cahaines; married 2nd Alice or Adeliza (born after 1163; died in or after 1214), daughter of 1st Earl of Oxford by his 3rd wife Agnes, and died between 1212 and 1214, having by his 1st wife had [Geoffrey], with and eldest son." "GEOFFREY DE SAY I, brother and heir male, being 2nd son of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was born probably not later than 1135, and possibly earlier. He appears as witness to a charter of Earl William de Mandeville, brother of Earl Geoffrey, before 1166, and a charter of Henry II, executed at Winchester (1176-81), granting to Earl William de Mandeville all the land in Normandy, which Robert de Say had rightfully given him. In 1184/5 he accounted in respect of disseisins in Kent; and acted as intermediary for Ralph Brito in connection with his account for the issues of the lands of Henry de Essex and of the Honor of Boulogne. On the King's last return to England in 1188, he was one of the messengers sent forthwith to Canterbury, to demand the instant restoration of services at Christ Church, Canterbury. "In 1191 he offered 7000 marks, after an offer of 3000 marks by Geoffrey FitzPiers in the previous year, for the land of Earl William de Mandeville (died 1189). The heir was Geoffrey's mother, Beatrice, but being "feeble and full of days " she stood aside in the interest of her son. Geoffrey obtained a grant of the lands and in 1190 put an aid upon them; but he was unable to pay the promised sum, and the lands, and eventually the Earldom, came to Geoffrey FitzPiers as husband of Beatrice, elder daughter of William, Geoffrey de Say's elder brother. Geoffrey de Say, however, did not abandon his claim, and in 1212 appointed his son Geoffrey, to whom he transferred his rights, to act as his attorney in the pending suit against Geoffrey FitzPiers for the lands of Earl William. Geoffrey I and Geoffrey FitzPiers were dead by 1214, in which year the claim was heard, after Geoffrey II had offered 15,000 marks to have such seisin of Earl William's lands as his father had on the day on which King Richard disseised him. Geoffrey de Mandeville defended the proceedings in place of his father. The claim failed, but continued to smoulder until 1283-84, when the matter was settled by fine. "In 1193, at the King's command, he accompanied the Chancellor to Germany, where he appears as a witness to several charters given by the King, with whom he was also in April and May 1194 at Winchester, Bishop's Waltham and Portsmouth. He was with the King in the army of Normandy in 1194, and witnessed charters of the King at Rouen in 1196 or 1197. He was at Lambeth in 1201 and at Lisieux in October 1202. In July 1203 he obtained quittance of debts to the Jews of London, with a further quittance so long as he was in the King's service with arms and horses. In 1204 he had an allowance of one mark for certain expenses in connection with Dover Castle, and on 8 August a mandate issued that he should have 100 marks of silver for the work of the Castle. On 23 January 1205 the King ordered the Constable of Taunton to send a master miner with 40 men to Dover to Geoffrey de Say. In 1191 he paid part of the scutage charged against the heirs of Walkelin Maminot, and in 1194 he was brought in as debtor for the scutage of the heirs "quorum heres est." From 1194. onwards he was regularly amerced for scutage on the Maminot lands. "He married, 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and daughter of Hugh MAMINOT. He married, 2ndly, Alice, daughter of Aubrey (DE VERE) 1st EARL OF OXFORD, almost certainly by his 3rd wife Agnes, daughter of Henry DE ESSEX. He was alive in 1212, but dead in 1214. Alice survived him and was living in 1214 and died possibly as late as 1217." «b»Property«/b» «b»Manor of Saye's Court«/b» "Gilbert de Magminot (or Maminot, as this name was afterwards more frequently spelt) fixed the scite of his barony here, which therefore was afterwards esteemed caput baroniæ, or head of the barony, and he erected a castle on it, as was usual in those days, every part of which has been long since buried in its own ruins; though some remains of stony foundations seem to point out the situation of it, near Saye's-court, in Bromfield, on the bank of the Thames, near the mast dock. His grandson, Wakelin, died without issue, in the third year of king Richard I. having been a good benefactor to the monks of Bermondsey, to whom, in the year 1157, he gave ten shillings rent, out of the mill of Deptford. On his death his sister Alice became his coheir, and brought this place, with much other inheritance, to her husband Geoffrey, second son of William de Saye, who granted this manor of West Greenwich (as it was then called) with the advowson of the church and its appurtenances to the Knights Templars, in pure and perpetual alms. His son Geoffrey regained the possession of it by giving the Knights Templars that of Sadlescombe, in Suffex, for it. He ratified to the canons of Begham the lands of Brocele, which were part of his barony, and the church of St. Nicholas, at Greenwich, which his father had given to them. Geoffrey de Saye, last mentioned, being in arms against king John, with others of the barons, in the 17th year of that reign, his lands and fees, lying in Kent and elsewhere, were given to Peter de Crohun, though after the death of the king he was taken into favour, and his lands were restored in the 8th year of king Henry III. «b»Birling Manor«/b» "Ralph de Curva Spina, or Crookthorne, as his name was Englished, resided at Comport, or Comford-park, in the north-east part of this parish, where this family continued till the reign of king Henry II. when they were succeeded in their possessions here by that of Magminot. Walkelin de Magminot died without issue in the third year of king Richard I. anno 1191, and Alice, his sister became his heir, who carried this manor in marriage to her husband Geoffry, second son of William de Say, who in her right became likewise possessed of large estates at Deptford, Cowdham, and elsewhere in this county. His descendant, William de Say, died possessed of the manor of Birling, in the 23d year of king Edward I. holding it in capite by barony, and in some old deeds Birling is stiled caput baroniæ de Say, that is the capital seat of his barony." "It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180. Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death."
  
• Alt. Birth: ABT 1135
  
• Notes:

  === Life Sketch ===
  Biography
  "He was involved in financial transactions and law suits against his cousins and nephew by marriage Geoffrey Fitz Piers to gain the lands of the Mandeville Earls of Essex; married 1st Alice, daughter of Hugh Maminot and widow of Ralph de Cahaines; married 2nd Alice or Adeliza (born after 1163; died in or after 1214), daughter of 1st Earl of Oxford by his 3rd wife Agnes, and died between 1212 and 1214, having by his 1st wife had [Geoffrey], with and eldest son."
  
  "GEOFFREY DE SAY I, brother and heir male, being 2nd son of William DE SAY I and Beatrice, was born probably not later than 1135, and possibly earlier. He appears as witness to a charter of Earl William de Mandeville, brother of Earl Geoffrey, before 1166, and a charter of Henry II, executed at Winchester (1176-81), granting to Earl William de Mandeville all the land in Normandy, which Robert de Say had rightfully given him. In 1184/5 he accounted in respect of disseisins in Kent; and acted as intermediary for Ralph Brito in connection with his account for the issues of the lands of Henry de Essex and of the Honor of Boulogne. On the King's last return to England in 1188, he was one of the messengers sent forthwith to Canterbury, to demand the instant restoration of services at Christ Church, Canterbury.
  
  "In 1191 he offered 7000 marks, after an offer of 3000 marks by Geoffrey FitzPiers in the previous year, for the land of Earl William de Mandeville (died 1189). The heir was Geoffrey's mother, Beatrice, but being "feeble and full of days " she stood aside in the interest of her son. Geoffrey obtained a grant of the lands and in 1190 put an aid upon them; but he was unable to pay the promised sum, and the lands, and eventually the Earldom, came to Geoffrey FitzPiers as husband of Beatrice, elder daughter of William, Geoffrey de Say's elder brother. Geoffrey de Say, however, did not abandon his claim, and in 1212 appointed his son Geoffrey, to whom he transferred his rights, to act as his attorney in the pending suit against Geoffrey FitzPiers for the lands of Earl William. Geoffrey I and Geoffrey FitzPiers were dead by 1214, in which year the claim was heard, after Geoffrey II had offered 15,000 marks to have such seisin of Earl William's lands as his father had on the day on which King Richard disseised him. Geoffrey de Mandeville defended the proceedings in place of his father. The claim failed, but continued to smoulder until 1283-84, when the matter was settled by fine.
  
  "In 1193, at the King's command, he accompanied the Chancellor to Germany, where he appears as a witness to several charters given by the King, with whom he was also in April and May 1194 at Winchester, Bishop's Waltham and Portsmouth. He was with the King in the army of Normandy in 1194, and witnessed charters of the King at Rouen in 1196 or 1197. He was at Lambeth in 1201 and at Lisieux in October 1202. In July 1203 he obtained quittance of debts to the Jews of London, with a further quittance so long as he was in the King's service with arms and horses. In 1204 he had an allowance of one mark for certain expenses in connection with Dover Castle, and on 8 August a mandate issued that he should have 100 marks of silver for the work of the Castle. On 23 January 1205 the King ordered the Constable of Taunton to send a master miner with 40 men to Dover to Geoffrey de Say. In 1191 he paid part of the scutage charged against the heirs of Walkelin Maminot, and in 1194 he was brought in as debtor for the scutage of the heirs "quorum heres est." From 1194. onwards he was regularly amerced for scutage on the Maminot lands.
  
  "He married, 1stly, Alice, widow of Ralph DE CAHAINES, and daughter of Hugh MAMINOT. He married, 2ndly, Alice, daughter of Aubrey (DE VERE) 1st EARL OF OXFORD, almost certainly by his 3rd wife Agnes, daughter of Henry DE ESSEX. He was alive in 1212, but dead in 1214. Alice survived him and was living in 1214 and died possibly as late as 1217."
  
  Property
  Manor of Saye's Court
  "Gilbert de Magminot (or Maminot, as this name was afterwards more frequently spelt) fixed the scite of his barony here, which therefore was afterwards esteemed caput baroniæ, or head of the barony, and he erected a castle on it, as was usual in those days, every part of which has been long since buried in its own ruins; though some remains of stony foundations seem to point out the situation of it, near Saye's-court, in Bromfield, on the bank of the Thames, near the mast dock. His grandson, Wakelin, died without issue, in the third year of king Richard I. having been a good benefactor to the monks of Bermondsey, to whom, in the year 1157, he gave ten shillings rent, out of the mill of Deptford. On his death his sister Alice became his coheir, and brought this place, with much other inheritance, to her husband Geoffrey, second son of William de Saye, who granted this manor of West Greenwich (as it was then called) with the advowson of the church and its appurtenances to the Knights Templars, in pure and perpetual alms.
  
  His son Geoffrey regained the possession of it by giving the Knights Templars that of Sadlescombe, in Suffex, for it. He ratified to the canons of Begham the lands of Brocele, which were part of his barony, and the church of St. Nicholas, at Greenwich, which his father had given to them. Geoffrey de Saye, last mentioned, being in arms against king John, with others of the barons, in the 17th year of that reign, his lands and fees, lying in Kent and elsewhere, were given to Peter de Crohun, though after the death of the king he was taken into favour, and his lands were restored in the 8th year of king Henry III.
  
  Birling Manor
  "Ralph de Curva Spina, or Crookthorne, as his name was Englished, resided at Comport, or Comford-park, in the north-east part of this parish, where this family continued till the reign of king Henry II. when they were succeeded in their possessions here by that of Magminot. Walkelin de Magminot died without issue in the third year of king Richard I. anno 1191, and Alice, his sister became his heir, who carried this manor in marriage to her husband Geoffry, second son of William de Say, who in her right became likewise possessed of large estates at Deptford, Cowdham, and elsewhere in this county. His descendant, William de Say, died possessed of the manor of Birling, in the 23d year of king Edward I. holding it in capite by barony, and in some old deeds Birling is stiled caput baroniæ de Say, that is the capital seat of his barony."
  
  "It was Geoffrey himself, not his son, who married between 1175 and 1180. Therefore it seems likely that he was born much later than 1135, and perhaps even after 1144, the traditional date of his father's death."
  
  
  === 2 Alice/De Vere ===
  2 Alice/De Vere
  
  === SLGC FAMC @05961236@ ===
  SLGC FAMC @05961236@
  
  === !The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of Engla ===
  !The Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England GS 942 D22 ban Vol 2 pp. 461-2. The Complete Peerage GS 942 D22 cok Vol (Say) pp. 465-468.
  
  === _P_CCINFO 1-14417 ===
  _P_CCINFO 1-14417
  
  === From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 J ===
  From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996. From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996. From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996. From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996.
  
  === !Ancestral file 1996; ===
  !Ancestral file 1996;
  
  === !Sinclair Genealogy !Eng vol 5 !FTM Vol ===
  !Sinclair Genealogy !Eng vol 5 !FTM Vol 3, tree #6402.
  
  === From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 J ===
  From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996.
  
  === !NOTE: The Church of Jesus Christ of Lat ===
  !NOTE: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Ancestral File (TM); ; June 1998 (c), data as of 5 JAN 1998; ; , Family History Library, 35 N West Temple Street, Salt Lake City, UT 84150 USA
  
  === !MARRIED ALICE MAMINOT AND ALICE de VERE ===
  !MARRIED ALICE MAMINOT AND ALICE de VERE
  
  === From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 5 J ===
  From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 5 JAN 1998.
  
  === Ancestral File Number: FK4G-BN ===
  Ancestral File Number: FK4G-BN
  
  === Line 25384 from GEDCOM File not recogniz ===
  Line 25384 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: SLGC FAMC @05961236@ Line 25385 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: SOUR @S01@
  
  === From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 J ===
  From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996. From Ancestral File (TM), data as of 2 January 1996.
  
  === !#21> Complete Peerage-v5-p Mandeville p ===
  !#21> Complete Peerage-v5-p Mandeville ped,126fn(d), (FHL 942 D22cok); !DEATH> shortly bef 19 May 1214;
  
  === GEDCOM line 33523 not recognizable or to ===
  GEDCOM line 33523 not recognizable or too long: (SLGC) 2 FAMC @05961236@ GEDCOM line 33524 not recognizable or too long: () 1 SOUR @S01@

• m. 1180 in West Malling, Kent, England

1. Idonea de Saye, b. ABT 1150 in England, United Kingdom    
2. Geoffrey de Saye II, b. ABT 1155 in West Greenwich, Kent, England     d. 24 AUG 1230 in Gascoigne, Poitou, France

1. Title: Geni: Geoffrey de Say
   Author: Geni
   Publication: Name: https://www.geni.com/people/Geoffrey-II-de-Saye-1st-Lord-of-West-Greenwich-Magna-Carta-Surety/6000000001354634669;
   Note: Information for Geoffrey de Saye, 1st Lord of West Greenwich
   
2. Title: British History Online, Edmonton: Manors
   Author: British History Online, Edmonton: Manors.
   Note: 10 Aug 1197-8 Mar 1198 - Confirmation by- Geoffrey Say s/o GEOFFREY SAY, s/o William Say of a grant made by his father GEOFFREY SAY, tho his own yr (1/2) brother (Geoffrey Say) whom his father had by Alice Vere on the petition of William Say, his elder brother of the manor of Rickling,Essex. [PFT:AQ] [S:Titl] British History Online, Edmonton: Manors [S:Note] 10 Aug 1197-8 Mar 1198 - Confirmation by- Geoffrey Say s/o GEOFFREY SAY, s/o William Say of a grant made by his father GEOFFREY SAY, tho his own yr (1/2) brother (Geoffrey Say) whom his father had by Alice Vere on the petition of William Say, his elder brother of the manor of Rickling,Essex [/PFT]
   
3. Title: British History Online, Edmonton: Manors
   Publication: Name: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol5/pp149-154;
   Note: 10 Aug 1197-8 Mar 1198 - Confirmation by- Geoffrey Say s/o GEOFFREY SAY, s/o William Say of a grant made by his father GEOFFREY SAY, tho his own yr (1/2) brother (Geoffrey Say) whom his father had by Alice Vere on the petition of William Say, his elder brother of the manor of Rickling,Essex
   Page: History
   
4. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Geoffrey de Saye, Baron [Surety of Magna Carta] -
   Author: Ancestral File (TM), The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, June 1998 (c), data as of 5 JAN 1998
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2737222797
   
5. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Geoffrey de Saye, Baron [Surety of Magna Carta] -
   Author: Ancestral File (R), The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Copyright (c) 1987, June 1998, data as of 5 January 1998, Family History Library, 35 N West Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150 USA
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2676700743
   
6. Title: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Say
   Author: Some corrections and additions to the Complete Peerage: Volume 11: Say
   Publication: Name: http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/say.shtml#p467a;
   Note: analysis of contemporary documents in an attempt to straighten out Say family
   
7. Title: Online - Notes on Medieval English Geneaology
   Note: Geoffrey Say m-1- Alice d/o John Cheney & Alice Mamiot d/o Hugh wiodw of Hugh Peirres d- Dec 1175 no issue m-2- Alice Vere Jan 1198 - GEOFFREY Say & his son Geoffrey made a grant to hospital of Drincourt, for prayers for the soul of Alice Kaisneo, mother of ypong Geoffrey
   
8. Title: British History Online, Edmonton: Manors
   Publication: Name: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/middx/vol5/pp149-154;
   Note: 10 Aug 1197-8 Mar 1198 - Confirmation by- Geoffrey Say s/o GEOFFREY SAY, s/o William Say of a grant made by his father GEOFFREY SAY, tho his own yr (1/2) brother (Geoffrey Say) whom his father had by Alice Vere on the petition of William Say, his elder brother of the manor of Rickling,Essex