Elen ferch Llewelyn

• Preferred Name: Elen ferch Llewelyn^{[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16]}
  
• Gender: F
  
• FSID: LD9W-M17
  
• Burial: FEB 1253 in Cardiganshire, Wales at LATI: N2.0842 LONG: E4.6579 with note: GEDCOM data
  
• Death: 1253 in Gwynedd, Wales at LATI: N2.9553 LONG: E4.0594
  
• Christening: 1230 in Caernarfonshire, Wales at LATI: N3.14 LONG: E4.26
  
• Clan Name: with note: Description: House of Gwynedd
  
• http://familysearch.org/v1/TitleOfNobility: Princess of North Wales
  
• Marriage+: with note: Description: Wikipedia.com
  
• http://familysearch.org/v1/TitleOfNobility: Countess of Huntingdon and ChesterBET 1222 AND 1237
  
• http://familysearch.org/v1/TitleOfNobility: Princess of Gwynedd, Princess of Wales, Countess of Huntingdon and Chester,
  
• Two Elens: with note: Description: Please don't confused this Elen (Helen) with her aunt, Helen verch Llywelyn.
  
• Birth: 1207 in Abergwyngregyn, Gwynedd, Wales at LATI: N3.2339 LONG: E4.0131
  
• Notes:

  === Life Sketch ===
  Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder), also known as Helen and Ellen, was the daughter of Llywelyn the Great, King of Gwynedd and all of Wales, and his wife Joan, Lady of Wales and Lady of Snowdon, also known by the Welsh name of Siwan, illegitimate daughter of King John of England.
  Elen was born about 1207 at Abergwyngregyn, in Gwynedd Wales and died in 1253.
  
  SHE IS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH HER YOUNGER SISTER OF THE SAME NAME 'ELEN THE YOUNGER FERCH LLYWELYN' WHO WAS BORN ABOUT 1230 AND DIED IN 1295
  
  Elen the Elder married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, in about 1222. John died in 1237, and Elen was forced by King Henry III (her mother's half-brother) to marry Sir Robert de Quincy, 3rd son of Saer de Quincy.
  
  Elen and Robert had a daughter:
  - Hawise, married Baldwin Wake, Lord Wake of Liddell.
  
  BIO
  BIO: from http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTTISH%20NOBILITY.htm#MargaretMarMMalcolmLennox as of 12/9/2018
  
  HELEN, widow of MALCOLM Macduff Earl of Fife, daughter of --- (-after 16 Feb 1295). The s
  
  === There was likely NOT an Elen Ferch Llyweln (The Younger) ===
  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41880035_The_Welsh_Wife_of_Malcolm_Earl_of_Fife_d1266_An_Alternative_Suggestion
  
  Upon reading this alternate suggestion of whom elen that married Malcolm Earl of Fife actually could be it makes much more sense.
  
  "The Scottish Historical Review, Volume LXXXVIII, 2: No. 226: October 2009, 352-355
  
  The Welsh wife of Malcolm, Earl of Fife (d. 1266): An Alternative Suggestion
  
  In the Melrose Chronicle it was recorded under the year 1230 that Malcolm II, earl of Fife (d 1266), "married the daughter of Llywelyn'. The Chronicon de Lanercost, written around sixty years after the entry in the Melrose Chronicle, described him as Llywelyn the Older, Lord of Wales. Neither work gave the name of this mysterious Welsh princess, but over time she came to be know as Helen, as this was the name of Malcolm's widow in 1266. This appears in the Scots Peerage, and has been accepted by many scholars working on Scottish history. In recent years her identify has been questioned, but no one has offered a plausible candidate. There is however, an alternative who has been overlooked thus far, and the case for her marriage to Malcolm in (or shortly after) 1230 is made here.
  
  It is a fairly straightforward task to demonstrate that the woman who married Earl Malcolm II was the the widow Helen he left in 1266. She went on to marry Donald, earl of Mar and gave him five children, the eldest of which appears to have come of age in the 1290's. If Malcolm married in 1230 when his wife was, at the youngest, aged twelve, at the time of his death, she would have been forty-eight; it is highly unlikely that she would have borne him five children in her fifties. Helen's apparent longevity has caused some confusion, and led the authors of the most recent Oxford Dictionary of National Biography to suggest that Helen was a daughter of Llywelyn ap Gruffydd."
  
  This document goes on to say that the possible "Welsh Princess" could actually be Llywelyn and Joan's daughter Susanna.
  
  Why would Llyweln and Joan name a 2nd daughter exact same name as their first daughter Elen. Also if the Melrose Chronicle states Malcolm married in 1230, then his first wife was NOT "Elen the younger" if she was supposedly born in 1230. His first wife was likely the "Welsh Princess" daughter of Llywelyn and Elen the 2nd wife.
  
  === {{Cymru 742-1535}}[[Category: Cymru 742- ===
  {{Cymru 742-1535}}[[Category: Cymru 742-1535]]
  '''{{Red|DO NOT merge with Elen or Helen "the Younger" ... they are sisters.}}'''
  
  ==Biography: Elen the Elder, b. 1208==
  Elen was born about 1208. She was the daughter of [[ap Iorwerth-26|Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth]] and [[Plantagenet-1624|Joan, natural daughterof King John of England]]. She is sometimes called Elen, or Helen, the Elder because another Helen is attributed to llywelyn, born a coupleof decades later and referred to as Helen the Younger. Elen the Elder, also called Elen of Wales, died in 1253.
  
  ===Name===
  :Elen ferch Llywelyn Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder).Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder). Accessed Feb 26, 2016
  :Countess of Huntingdon and Chester
  :House House of Aberffraw (by birth)
  :House of Dunkeld (by marriage)
  
  ===Arms===
  The arms of the Aberffraw House of Gwynedd were traditionally first used by Elen's grandfather, Iorwerth Drwyndwn.
  
  ===1208 Birth and Parentage===
  Helen, born after 1208 to Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and his wife Joan, diedbefore 24 October 1253. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Cawley, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], TheFoundation for Medieval Genealogy
  Her parents were Llewlyn the Great who married as his second wife Joan, Lady Snowden (d. ante 24 Oct 1253)[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
  
  :Father Llywelyn the Great
  :Mother Joan, Lady of Wales
  
  ===1222 Marriage to John of Scotland===
  m.1 '''John of Scotland''', 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]The Annales Cestrienses; d. 1237 (The Annals of Dunstable)
  m firstly ([1222]) JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon, son of JOHN of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his wife Matilda of Chester ([1207]-Darnal [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester St Werburg). He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232.
  Elen married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, in about 1222. He died aged thirty in 1237,
  John "the Scot" was born about 1207. Cawley, C. (2006). Medieval Lands v.3. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237 fmg.ac].
  The Annales Londonienses name "Johannem" as the son of "comiti David" & his wife[506].
  The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitisDavid” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[288].
  John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) names "Robertum…et Henricum necnon Johannem Scotum ab Anglis vocitatum" as the three sons of "David, rex quondam Willelmus frater" and his wife "Matildem filiamHugonis…comitis quondam de Cestria", adding that John succeeded hisfather and also succeeded "Ranulpho…ad comitatum Cestriæ"[507].
  John of Scotland (or John de Scotia), 9th Earl of Huntingdon and 7th Earl of Chester (c. 1207 – 6 June 1237), sometimes known as "the Scot", was an Anglo-Scottish magnate, the son of David of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon by his wife Matilda of Chester, daughter of Hugh de Kevelioc. John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon, Wikipedia. [[Wikipedia: John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Scotland,_Earl_of_Huntingdon]
  John married Elen ferch Llywelyn, daughter of Llywelyn the Great, in about 1222.
  m. c. 1222 Elen ferch Llywelyn "the Elder"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder)]
  m ([1222]) as her first wife, HELEN of Wales, daughter of LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct).
  The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitisDavid” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[514].
  
  ===1237 Death of Husband John===
  Matthew of Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[290].
  He died in Darnhall, Cheshire [5/7] Jun 1237 and was buried in Chesterat the Abbey of St Werburg[505]).
  The Annales Cestrienses record the death “apud Darnal VII Id Jun” 1237 of “Johannes de Scocia comes Cestrie et Huntendon” and his burial “apud Cestriam”[510].
  The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1237 of "Johannes comes Cestriæ gener suus [dominæ Johannæ filiæ regis Angliæ et uxor Lewiliniprincipis Walliæ]"[512]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “V Id Jan” in 1237 of “Johannes de Scotia comes Cestriæ”[513].
  
  ===1237 Marriage to Robert de Quincy===
  Sir Robert de Quincy. Following the death of John of Scotland, she was forced by King Henry III to marry Sir Robert de Quincy.
  'Helen of Wales...widow of John "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of Llywellyn ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct)" married Robert de Quincy "(1237 before 5 Dec) as her second husband.'[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales Robert de Quincy], [[#FMG]]
  m secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) ROBERT de Quincy, son of SAHER Earl of Winchester & his wife Margaret of Leicester (-Aug 1257).
  A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[516].
  m.2 ante 05 Dec 1237 '''Sir Robert de Quincy'''[http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
  The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” diedin 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father's wishes[289]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified.
  
  ===1253 Death===
  
  Died 1253 (aged 46–47)
  d. ante c.1254 (before eve of St Martin 38 Hen) III [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237]
  HELEN (-1253 before 24 Oct). [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], Cawley, The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
  A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[291].
  
  ==Issue==
  
  ===Date Estimation===
  Notice that Elen had no children in 15 years of marriage to John, but three daughters following her marriage to Robert. Her birth year is unknown but estimated as 1208, which would make her 14 at her first marriage in 1222, not uncommon in Wales, and make her 29 15 years later in 1237 when she married Robert.
  Her daughters with Robert would have been born after 1237, perhaps 1238 and 1240, when she was 30 and 32. Her youngest daughter Hawise is thought to be born in 1250, when she was 42.
  If Elen were born later than 1208 her first marriage would likely be apaper marriage until she was 14. If for instance she were born 1212,she would be 8 at her marriage in 1222, and 14 six years later in 1228. If her husband John was in fact born in 1207, he would have been 15 in 1222 and 21 six years later in 1228.
  Placing Elen's birth in 1212 would then make her 4 years younger when Hawise was born, age 38 rather than 42.
  
  ===Issue by first husband John===
  Her first husband John died childless on 6 June 1237, aged 30.
  
  ===Issue by second husband Robert===
  
  She and Robert had three daughters, born after their marriage in 1237:
  
  #Anne, a nun#Joan de Quincy (-25 Nov 1284), married Humphrey de Bohun, son of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford and Essex, & his first wife Maud de Lusignan#Hawise ([1250]-before 27 Mar 1285), married (before 5 Feb 1268) Baldwin Wake, son of Hugh Wake & his wife Joan de Stuteville Their daughter, Hawise, married Baldwin Wake, Lord Wake of Liddell.
  
  ===Descendants===
  Hawise and Baldwin’s granddaughter, Margaret Wake, was the mother ofJoan of Kent. Joan of Kent was the wife of Edward, the Black Prince and the mother of Richard II of England, who was deposed and died without heirs.
  The blood of Llywelyn the Great eventually came into the English royalfamily through Joan of Kent's earlier marriage to Thomas Holland, 1stEarl of Kent. By their eldest son, Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent, two of his six daughters were ancestresses;
  Margaret Holland who was the mother of John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset; John Beaufort was the grandfather of Henry VII.
  Alianore Holland was the grandmother of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York. Richard was the father of Edward IV and Richard III and a grandfather of Elizabeth of York, queen to Henry VII.
  By Thomas, 2nd Earl of Kent's other daughter, Eleanor Holland, Countess of Salisbury, Elen ferch Llywelyn was an ancestress of Queen consorts Anne Neville, consort of Richard III and daughter of Warwick, the Kingmaker, as well as Catherine Parr, the last wife of Henry VIII.[1][2]
  
  ==Sources==
  
  * '''"Royal Ancestry" Douglas Richardson 2013 Vol. V. p. 302'''Ellen Of Wales, married (1st) about 22 August 1222 John Of Scotland, Knt. They had no issue. She married (2nd) before 5 Dec. 1237 Robert de Quincy, Knt, younger son of Saher de Quincy, Knt.
  
  === Llywelyn the Great had 2 daughters named 'Elen ferch Llywelyn' ===
  It is important to realize that Llywelyn the Great had 2 daughters named 'Elen ferch Llywelyn'
  To distinguish them they are referred to as 'The Elder' and 'The Younger'
  
  'Elen ferch Llywelyn the Elder'
  Also known as Helen, Ellen, and Elen the Elder
  Was born about 1206/1207, married John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon and then Sir Robert de Quincy, and died in 1253.
  
  Her younger sister 'Elen ferch Llywelyn the Younger'
  Also known as Helen, Ellen, and Elen the Younger
  Was born about 10 years after her older sister between 1220 and 1230, married Malcolm II, Earl of Fide and Domhnall I, Earl of Mar; she died about 1295
  
  IT IS IMPORTANT NOT TO CONFUSE THEM
  
  === !#4569> Welsh Genealogies Ad 1400-1500,- ===
  !#4569> Welsh Genealogies Ad 1400-1500,-v9-p1426 (FHL 942.9 D2fw); #2105> Wales Visitations-v2-p72* (FHL Q942.9 D23d); #1039> Anglesey Pedigrees-p316 (FHL 942.9 D2gr); !#771> Powys Fadog-v4-p352,-v6-p413 (FHL 942.9 D2l); #772> Archaeologia Cambrensis-5s-v4-p306 (FHL 942.9 B2c); !GNAME> Elen (#4569,#2105,#1039,#771) Alice (#772);
  
  === '''{{Red|DO NOT merge with Elen "the Eld ===
  '''{{Red|DO NOT merge with Elen "the Elder" ... they are sisters.}}'''
  
  ==Biography: Helen the Younger, b. 1230==
  
  ===Name===
  '''Elen "the Younger" ferch Llywelyn'''[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children]
  
  ===Birth and Parentage===
  Helen, born before 1230 to Llywelyn and a mistress other than Tangwystl. [http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Llywellyndied1240B Llywelyn ap Iorwerth], Cawley, The Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
  It is assumed that she was illegitimate. If she had been her father´s legitimate daughter, the absence in the sources of any reference to her descent from John King of England would be surprising.
  b. ante 1230[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children]
  
  ===Parents===
  Llywelyn ap Iorwerth and Joan, Lady Snowden (Father: John I of England)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children]
  
  ===First Marriage to Malcolm, Earl of Fife===
  m.1 '''Máel Coluim II, Earl of Fife''' / '''Malcolm III''' (p. Duncan Macduff of Fife and Alice Corbet).[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1el_Coluim_II,_Earl_of_Fife]
  John of Fordun´s Scotichronicon (Continuator) records the death in 1228 of "Malcolmus comes de Fyfe" and the succession of "Malcolmus neposeius, filius…fratris eius", adding that the latter later married "filiam Leulini regis Walliæ"[307].
  The Chronicle of Melrose records the death in 1230 of "Malcolm earl ofFife" and the succession of "his nephew Malcolm, the son of his brother", adding that the latter "afterwards married the daughter of Leulin"[308].
  The Chronicle of Lanercost records the death in 1229 of "comes de Fif,Malcolmus", the succession of "nepos eiusdem…Malcolmus", adding that the latter married "filia Leulini senioris domini Walliæ"[309]. The last source is the only one of the three which does not state that the new earl´s marriage was later than his succession.
  Her birth date is estimated on her having given birth to her known sonin [1244/46], which suggests that the couple married at least ten years after Malcolm became earl.
  She m [firstly] [as his first wife,] MALCOLM Earl of Fife, son of DUNCAN Macduff of Fife & his wife Alice Corbet (-1266).
  
  ===Second Marriage to Donald, Earl of Mar===
  The second marriage of the widow of Malcolm Earl of Fife is confirmed by the documents under which "Elenæ comitissæ de Marre" accounted for payment of "xl s pro parte dotis suæ" in the accounts of lands formerly belonging to Duncan Earl of Fife 20 Nov 1293 and 16 Feb 1294[310].
  However, it is not certain that this widow of Earl Malcolm was the same person as his wife who was the daughter of Prince Llywelyn.
  The birth of Earl Malcolm's son Colban is estimated to [1244/46]. However, Earl Malcolm´s widow had four known children by her second husband. This would mean that she gave birth to children over an approximately thirty year span, which although not impossible would be unusual.
  In addition, it seems unlikely that Earl Donald would have married, ashis first marriage, a woman who would have been more than 35 years old.
  She [m secondly (after 1266) DONALD Earl of Mar, son of WILLIAM Earl of Mar & his first wife Elizabeth Comyn of Buchan (-after 25 Jul 1297).]
  m.2 (after 1266) '''Domhnall (Donald) I, Earl of Mar''' (p. William, Earl of Mar and Elizabeth Comyn of Buchan). Issue:[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domhnall_I,_Earl_of_Mar]
  
  * Isabella of Mar m. Robert the Bruce, King of Scots
  
  ===1295 Death===
  
  Helen died after 16 Feb 1295).
  d. after 16 Feb 1295 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llywelyn_the_Great#Children]
  
  == Sources ==
  
  
  
  See also:
  
  [[Wikipedia: Llywelyn the Great#Children]]
  
  ----'''NAMES HAVE MANY VARIANTS. PLEASE CHECK FOR MATCHES BETWEEN DIFFERENT SPELLINGS PRIOR TO MERGE.'''

• m. 1222

• m. ABT 1227 in

1. Hawise de Quincy, b. 1250 in Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England     d. 27 MAR 1285 in Bourne, Lincolnshire, England

1. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen verch Llywelyn -
   Author: Burke's Peerage & Baronetage, 106th Edition, Charles Mosley {1999}, Page number: 1853
   Note: Source Media Type: Book
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736742367
   
2. Title: Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
   Publication: Name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn_(the_Elder);
   Note: Elen ferch Llywelyn Countess of Huntingdon and Chester Arms of Llywelyn.svg The arms of the Aberffraw House of Gwynedd were traditionally first used by Elen's grandfather, Iorwerth Drwyndwn. Born c. 1207 Died 1253 (aged 46–47) Spouse John of Scotland, Earl of Huntingdon Sir Robert de Quincy Issue Hawise de Quincy House Aberffraw Father Llywelyn the Great Mother Joan, Lady of Wales Elen ferch Llywelyn (c. 1207 – 1253) was the daughter of Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd in North Wales by Joan, Lady of Wales, the natural daughter of King John of England. Elen married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon,[1] in about 1222. He died aged thirty in 1237, and she was forced by King Henry III (her mother's half-brother) to marry Sir Robert de Quincy, the son of Saer de Quincy. Their daughter, Hawise, married Baldwin Wake,[2] Lord Wake of Liddell. Elen ferch Llywelyn in fiction Child of the Phoenix by Barbara Erskine Here Be Dragons by Sharon Kay Penman Falls the Shadow by Sharon Kay Penman: In Penman's version, Elen and Robert de Quincy are lovers, and she marries him immediately on John's death despite her father's opposition. References Thomas Jones Pierce. "Llywelyn ap Iorwerth". Welsh Biography Online. National Library of Wales. Retrieved 25 May 2018. Alison Weir, Britain's Royal Families: The Complete Genealogy (London, U.K.: The Bodley Head, 1999), page 194.
   
3. Title: Elen in "Saer de Quincy, 1st Earl of Winchester "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
   Publication: Name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saer_de_Quincy,_1st_Earl_of_Winchester#Earl_of_Winchester;
   Note: Sometime between 1188 and 1193 de Quincy married Margaret, youngest daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 3rd Earl of Leicester.[2] By his wife Margaret de Beaumont, Earl Saer had: Lora, who married Sir William de Valognes, Chamberlain of Scotland. Arabella, who married Sir Richard Harcourt. Robert (died 1217); before 1206 he married Hawise of Chester, 1st Countess of Lincoln, sister and co-heiress of Randolph de Blondeville, 4th Earl of Chester. Roger, who succeeded his father as earl of Winchester (though he did not take formal possession of the earldom until after his mother's death).[8] Robert de Quincy [de] (second son of that name; died 1257), who married Elen, daughter of the Welsh prince Llywelyn the Great. Hawise, who married Hugh de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford. Mary, who married Hugh le Despenser (sheriff).
   Page: Robert de Quincy [de] (second son of that name; died 1257), who married Elen, daughter of the Welsh prince Llywelyn the Great.
   
4. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen ferch Llewellyn -
   Author: Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom; GE Cokayne, Sutton Publishing Ltd, Page number: III:169-170
   Note: Source Media Type: Book
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736741118
   
5. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen ferch Llewellyn -
   Author: Ancestral Roots of Certain Americian Colonists, 7th Edition, by Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Shippard Jr, Page number: 53-28, 236-8
   Note: Source Media Type: Book
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736741115
   
6. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen verch Llywelyn -
   Author: The Scots Peerage; Sir James Balfour Paul {1904-1914, 2000 rev} with Addenda et Corrigenda {2000}, Page number: V:578
   Note: Source Media Type: Book
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736741135
   
7. Title: Saher IV de Quincy in Medieval Lands Project
   Author: Online.
   Publication: Name: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#SaherQuincydied1219A;
   Note: Biography. SAHER [IV] de Quincy, son of ROBERT de Quincy & his first wife Orabilis of Mar ([1165/70]-Damietta 3 Nov 1219, bur Acre) He was created Earl of Winchester before 10 Feb 1207. He supported the barons against King John and was one of the 25 men chosen in Jun 1215 to enforce obedience of Magna Carta, being excommunicated by the Pope in Dec 1215. He supported the barons against King John and was one of the 25 men chosen in Jun 1215 to enforce obedience of Magna Carta, being excommunicated by the Pope in Dec 1215. He joined the Crusade in 1219 and died at the siege of Damietta. His heart being burned and later buried at Garendon. m (before 1190) MARGARET of Leicester, daughter of ROBERT de Beaumont Earl of Leicester & his wife Pernelle de Grantmesnil. Saher [IV] & his wife had [eight] children.
   Page: Shows relationships.
   
8. Title: wife of JOHN "the Scot" - Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
   Publication: Name: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SCOTLAND.htm#JohnScotdied1237;
   Note: JOHN "the Scot" ([1207]-Darnhall, Cheshire [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester, Abbey of St Werburg[507]). The Annales Londonienses name "Johannem" as the son of "comiti David" & his wife[508]. John of Fordun’s Scotichronicon (Continuator) names "Robertum…et Henricum necnon Johannem Scotum ab Anglis vocitatum" as the three sons of "David, rex quondam Willelmus frater" and his wife "Matildem filiam Hugonis…comitis quondam de Cestria", adding that John succeeded his father and also succeeded "Ranulpho…ad comitatum Cestriæ"[509]. He succeeded his father in 1219 as Earl of Huntingdon and Garioch. "Johannes de Scocia comes Huntedun" donated "terram…de Lundors" to Lindores Abbey by undated charter, subscribed by "Henrico de Striuelin fratre meo…"[510]. He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232, in succession to his maternal uncle: the Annales Cestrienses record the death “VII Kal Nov apud Walingford” of “Rannulphus comes Cestrie et Lincoln” and that “Johannes de Scocia” was made “comes Cestrie...XI Kal Dec...apud Northampton”[511]. The Annales Cestrienses record the death “apud Darnal VII Id Jun” 1237 of “Johannes de Scocia comes Cestrie et Huntendon” and his burial “apud Cestriam”[512]. Matthew Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[513]. The Annales Cambriæ record the death in 1237 of "Johannes comes Cestriæ gener suus [dominæ Johannæ filiæ regis Angliæ et uxor Lewilini principis Walliæ]"[514]. The Annals of Tewkesbury record the death “V Id Jan” in 1237 of “Johannes de Scotia comes Cestriæ”[515]. m ([1222]) as her first wife, HELEN of Wales, daughter of LLYWELYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second/third wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct). The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[516]. The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father’s wishes[517]. She married secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) Robert de Quincy. A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[518].
   
9. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen ferch Llewellyn -
   Author: Magna Charta Sureties 1215, Frederick Lewis Weis, additions by Walter Lee Sheppard Jr, 5th Ed {1999}, Page number: 114-2
   Note: Source Media Type: Book
   Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736741136
   
10. Title: The Medieval Lands Project, "HELEN of Wales"
    Author: Online.
    Publication: Name: http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Helendied1253;
    Note: HELEN (-1253 before 24 Oct). The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[288]. The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father´s wishes[289]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified. Matthew of Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[290]. A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[291]. m firstly ([1222]) JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon, son of JOHN of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his wife Matilda of Chester ([1207]-Darnal [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester St Werburg). He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232. m secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) ROBERT de Quincy, son of SAHER Earl of Winchester & his wife Margaret of Leicester (-Aug 1257).
    
11. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen ferch Llewellyn -
    Author: Family History Library archive record (family group sheet)
    Note: Source: The Royal Lines of Succession, A16A225, p. 23; Dict. of Nat. Biogr., Eng. Pub. A v. 14, p. 200-202, v. 23, p. 307, 308, v. 29, p. 388, v. 34, p. 7-13, v. 39, p. 131; The Complete Peerage, G. E. C., Eng. Pub. V, v. 3, p. 169; (over) Submitter: Elias Harmer Fam. Assn.
    Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:3244547632
    
12. Title: wife of 'Robert de Quincy' - Foundation for Medieval Genealogy
    Publication: Name: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/ENGLISH%20NOBILITY%20MEDIEVAL2.htm#RobertQuincyMHelenWales;
    Note: 6. ROBERT ([1217/19]-Aug 1257). The Complete Peerage names him as younger brother of Roger de Quincy Earl of Winchester but does not cite the corresponding source[111]. The primary source which confirms his parentage has not yet been identified. He is named “Roberto [de Quinci]” in the Annals of Dunstable when recording his marriage[112]. His birth date range is suggested on the assumption that he was born after the death of his older brother also called Robert, although his mother would have been over 45 years old at the time. m (1237 before 5 Dec) as her second husband, HELEN of Wales, widow of JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of LLYWELLYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales & his second/third wife Joan [illegitimate daughter of John King of England] (-1253 before 24 Oct). The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father´s wishes[113]. A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[114]. Robert & his wife had three children: a) ANNE . The primary source which confirms her parentage has not yet been identified. A nun. b) JOAN de Quincy (-25 Nov 1284). An undated writ "48 Hen III", after the death of "Roger de Quency earl of Winchester", records that "Joan, wife of Humphrey de Boum the younger of full age, and Hawis, within age, daughters of the late Robert de Quency" were his heirs in the manor of "Styventon alias Steventon [Bedford]"[115]. A writ dated 15 Dec "12 Edw I", after the death of "Joan late the wife of Humphrey de Boun alias de Bohun", records that she died "on Thursday the feast of St Katherine 12 Edw I" and that "Hawis her sister, late the wife of Baldwin Wake, is her next heir and of full age"[116]. m as his second wife, HUMPHREY [VI] de Bohun, son of HUMPHREY [V] de Bohun Earl of Hereford and Essex & his first wife Maud de Lusignan (-Beeston Castle, Cheshire 27 Oct 1265, bur Combermere Abbey). c) HAWISE ([1250]-before 27 Mar 1285). An undated writ "48 Hen III", after the death of "Roger de Quency earl of Winchester", records that "Joan, wife of Humphrey de Boum the younger of full age, and Hawis, within age, daughters of the late Robert de Quency" were his heirs in the manor of "Styventon alias Steventon [Bedford]"[117]. A writ dated 15 Dec "12 Edw I", after the death of "Joan late the wife of Humphrey de Boun alias de Bohun", records that she died "on Thursday the feast of St Katherine 12 Edw I" and that "Hawis her sister, late the wife of Baldwin Wake, is her next heir and of full age"[118]. m (before 5 Feb 1268) as his second wife, BALDWIN Wake, son of HUGH Wake & his wife Joan de Stuteville ([1237/38]-before 10 Feb 1282).
    
13. Title: Legacy NFS Source: Helen ferch Llewellyn -
    Author: Dictionary of National Biography, George Smith, Oxford Press, Vols 1-21 (Orignially published 1885-90),Ed by Sir Leslie S, Page number: XVI:558
    Note: Source Media Type: Book
    Page: Migrated from user-supplied source citation: urn:familysearch:source:2736742373
    
14. Title: Helen (later referred to as Eleanor) of Wales, widow of JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon and Chester, daughter of LLYWELLYN ap Iorwerth Fawr ("the Great") Prince of Wales
    Publication: Name: https://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/WALES.htm#Helendied1253;
    Note: The names of the other mistresses of Prince Llywelyn are not known. Prince Llywelyn & his second/third wife had three children: 1. DAFYDD 2. HELEN* (-1253 before 24 Oct). The Annales Cestrienses record in 1222 that “Johannes filius comitis David” married “filiam Lewelini” in accordance with the agreement between him and “comitem Cestrie”[307]. The Annals of Dunstable record that “Johannes comes Cestriæ” died in 1237 and “eius uxor…filia Lewelini” married “Roberto [de Quinci]” against her father´s wishes[308]. The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified. Matthew Paris records that it was suspected that his wife "filia Leolini" poisoned John “the Scot”[309]. A writ after the death of "Eleanor, sometime the wife of John Earl of Chester", dated "the eve of St Martin 38 Hen III", records the "partition of her lands between Si J. de Bayllol, Robert de Brus, and Henry de Hasting, the heirs of the said earl"[310]. m firstly ([1222]) JOHN "the Scot" Earl of Huntingdon, son of JOHN of Scotland Earl of Huntingdon & his wife Matilda of Chester ([1207]-Darnal [5/7] Jun 1237, bur Chester St Werburg). He was created Earl of Chester 21 Nov 1232. m secondly (1237 before 5 Dec) ROBERT de Quincy, son of SAHER Earl of Winchester & his wife Margaret of Leicester (-Aug 1257). referred to as Eleanor in the text - is this an error on the part of FMG? - "The primary source which confirms her name has not yet been identified" Then why not use the name in the text? 3. SUSANNA
    
15. Title: UK and Ireland, Find A Grave Index, 1300s-Current
    Publication: Name: http://search.ancestry.com/collections/60526/records/923180;
    
16. Title: Elen ferch Llywelyn (the Elder) in Wikipedia
    Author: Wikipedia.org
    Publication: Name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elen_ferch_Llywelyn;
    Note: Elen ferch Llywelyn (c. 1207 – 1253) was the daughter of Llywelyn the Great of Gwynedd in North Wales by Joan, Lady of Wales, the natural daughter of King John of England. Elen married John of Scotland, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, in about 1222. He died aged thirty in 1237, and she was forced by King Henry III (her mother's half-brother) to marry Sir Robert de Quincy, the son of Saer de Quincy. Their daughter, Hawise, married Baldwin Wake,[2] Lord Wake of Liddell.